What you do in your house is worth as much as if you did it up in heaven for our Lord God. We should accustom ourselves to think of our position and work as sacred and well-pleasing to God, not on account of the position and work, but on account of the word and faith from which the obedience and the work flow. ~ Martin Luther

Saturday, June 11, 2005

A lively debate for all those up to it.....

I am currently reading a book entitled GENIE: A Scientific Tragedy by Russ Rymer. It is a refresher and a more in-depth study of a topic I studied in my Language Development and Children course in college. The story fascinated me even then...though I didn't even know the half of it. As the title states, it IS a tradegy. A tragedy of mankind.
I suppose I was raised naive and sheltered. At one time I had no idea people lived any different than me. Then, having realized that- the next realization was the sheer number of such victims and following that, the depth of destruction that these individuals faced. Genie is a girl who was held captive in her own home. She was treated worse than any animal. She was tied to a potty seat for the entire day-locked in a room with nothing on the walls. Her father hated noise, so those who made it were severely punished and thus the home was devoid of noise. No one was allowed to see her during the day unless to hastily feed her. If she was remembered, she would be placed in a homemade bag that zipped her arms inside (like a straight-jacket) and placed in a crib that had mesh on all sides including the top....a cage for sleeping at night. She was feed only baby food. She was 13 years old when she was found. Her 13 year old frame was only 59 inches tall and 54 pounds. She could not chew. She refused to make any sound...because even a small sob heard from her father would initiate a severe beating.

She was discovered and became a scientific experiment. EVERYONE wanted to see her...experiment with her. Learn from her. The times were in the midst of a great debate about Language Acquisition-but no one could discover where and how language came out (whether innate or learned) by testing "normal" children because it would be at the expense of a human. Moral issues arose. Everyone wanted their piece of her, wanted to take full advantage of her to answer this heated debate. She was fair game because she had not experienced language of any kind, and so was already ‘screwed up’.

I am constantly surprised by the depth of pain people endure and survive. My naïve-self thought the jungle book was just a childrens' story. I was wrong. Situations like that do indeed happen. Some of the documented cases of children raised by animals are....a Hesse wolf-child, an Irish sheep-child, two Lithuanian bear-children, and MANY MORE. These children were actually adopted into these ‘packs’ or ‘herds’. In January 1800 a boy was discovered who was coined the Wild Boy. He was found naked at a tanner's hut in the woods when he was 12. His throat had been slit as a toddler and he was abandoned in the forest to die. He survived each winter without clothes, eating only acorns and other forest growth. (HOW COULD HE POSSIBLY LIVE, I wonder?!?!?) His story is tragic as well. He was found, experimented on, became attached to one particular scientist, but the moment the hyposthesis they were trying to prove was indeed, proven, the scientist (the only person the boy ever learned to trust and care for) abandoned him and never visited him again, though he worked only a few houses down from where the boy was living.

It is a shame for humanity, first, that children like these would even exist and their parents are cruel enough to abandon them, but also that those ‘civilized’ individuals see humanity only as science and nothing more and use these children as resources and experiments and then discard them when they are through.

Somewhat on topic, at Michelle’s baby shower this week, we spoke a little bit about genetic engineering. There were many thoughts, both pro and con, about it and it led to an interesting discussion. Of course there is danger when in comes to picking genders, eye colors, etc. but what about ridding oneself of disease? The point was made that ridding oneself of mutated or imperfect cells/DNA is just like using penicillin…preventing disease to sustain life. Then, it was brought up that Christians are given wisdom in all aspects of life, medically not excluded, and God has given us this knowledge for a reason-therefore, we should use this knowledge to help sustain life. But I ask, where does one draw the line (if at all) when it comes to using worldly wisdom to further one’s life? There are certain ‘gray’ areas that don’t make for easy answers. What think ye of invitro-fertilization? It goes against ‘nature’ but is following scripture’s view of children being blessings and wanting to raise godly seed. What about ectopic pregnancies? Though the baby might die an unnatural (though inevitable) death, life is sustained and preserved through the mother (which it will not be if left untreated and the baby continues to grow.) What about surrogate mothering? It is very unnatural, and you certainly didn’t see it in biblical times, but it still follows the line of thinking that children are a blessing and that families should raise Godly seed. All these examples are areas that are not clear-cut, that require discretion, prudence, and wisdom coming out your ears. I don’t have all the answers-neither does Matt. We haven’t even reached conclusions to many of these topics, praying that we will not have to come to a point where a situation requires one. But it certainly makes for interesting discussions and I think it would make an interesting online discussion if anyone is game. I am all ears for different points of view. To avoid overtaking blogdom with comments, perhaps we should stick to the primary question and that is, when should we say ‘when’ to using scientific means (and worldy wisdom) to further, sustain, and perfect out lives? Is there a limit, at all? You can bring the other questions into your answer-but don’t expect an answer from me pertaining those-after all, in the above stated disclosure, I do not even suppose to know the answers to those questions.

7 comments:

Abigail said...

As long as we’re talking about horrific crimes against children, have you read any of the A Child Called It books by David Pelzer?
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FIRST, NONE OF THESE COMMENTS ARE DIRECTLY ADDRESSED TO YOU, REBECCA, AS MOST OF WHAT I'M RESPONDING TO YOU PROBABLY DON'T EVEN HOLD TO...OR YOU MAY, BUT I DON'T KNOW, ANYWAY. I'M WRITING BECAUSE I KNOW YOU ADORE TOO-LONG COMMENTS FROM ME. :)

“….perhaps we should stick to the primary question and that is, when should we say ‘when’ to using scientific means (and worldy wisdom) to further, sustain, and perfect out lives? Is there a limit, at all?”

I think (hope, rather) that all who read your blog would agree that there are definite limits to the moral use of technology. Anyway, I don’t know if it’s possible to answer the primary question you give. I’m not against the use of technology, medical or otherwise, and I believe that for the most part, it brings good, but I also think there are limits, and the point at which we say “when” differs according to the situation. So, not to be incendiary and without giving much to provoke thought, here are my immediate responses to the situations you mentioned (exactly what you did NOT want to happen in the comments!). Bad, Big-Mouth Abigail!
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“Christians are given wisdom in all aspects of life, medically not excluded, and God has given us this knowledge for a reason-therefore, we should use this knowledge to help sustain life.”

God has given us knowledge for a reason, but man has also sought out knowledge that he would be better off without since time’s beginning (i.e. the tree in the Garden of Eden). Those who use a blanket statement like that to support controversial uses of technology paint with too broad a brush, as not all knowledge is profitable and brings about good, even though God permits man’s acquisition of it.
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“Of course there is danger when in comes to picking genders, eye colors, etc. but what about ridding oneself of disease?”

Why is choosing eye color or gender more dangerous than ridding oneself of disease? Is it because it would be a "frivolous" use of technology as opposed to the serious "remedy" of the other? Is God waiting for us to develop this technology so that we can be happy? Are diseases and defects and--yes, even death--in babies something He "has" to allow because of sin but would be pleased to see us eradicate in the womb? Our God is one of deliberate order and design, and he knits our gender, eyes, and all else in the womb. Congenital defect and disease is no less a part of His creation than one’s gender or eye color, and removing them alters one’s life much more than changing eyes from brown to blue. My Aunt Shirley is a case in point (see below). Do those who believe this is completely permissable have limits as to what can and cannot be tampered with? If so, what's the criteria that permits it and what's the criteria that forbids it?
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“The point was made that ridding oneself of mutated or imperfect cells/DNA is just like using penicillin…preventing disease to sustain life.”

I haven’t thought about this much, but I don’t think these two things are interchangeable. Penicillin treats a sickness transferred by outside sources, and though it may allow one health, it does not change the fundamental aspects of a person’s very self. Tweaking DNA, on the other hand, alters the intrinsic design that God has created. I don’t know if there would ever be a way to prevent an extra 21st chromosome from existing in a developing baby, but if there were, I bet my boots that many people would place this in the same category as “fixing” mutated or imperfect cells/DNA.

This “extra” cell is what made my Aunt Shirley who she was—an open-hearted; honest; by turns giddy and grouchy, endearing and infuriating; quirky; and thoroughly irreplaceable girl (then woman) with Down’s Syndrome. She died with my grandparents when I was about 14, but, even at that young age, I knew we were uniquely gifted for having known and loved her and for being loved by her.

I don’t know if her life would have been easier if she had been born “whole,” but that’s not the point. An easy life is not the ultimate good, just as life at any cost is not the ultimate good. I know straight through to my bones that God gave us a great good in her, and that He purposefully made her who she was. Although congenital diseases and defects are an offshoot of the Fall, God brings about good through them that otherwise would not exist. The things I learned from Aunt Shirley’s (and those like her) childlike belief would not have been if she was born with “normal” mental and physical capacities. This is not to diminish the fact that birth defects are often a cause of parental anguish and sometimes lifelong hardship, just that they contain unique good, as well, which is perhaps God's balm for the sorrow.
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Okay, now for the knee-jerk quickies…

“What think ye of invitro-fertilization? It goes against ‘nature’ but is following scripture’s view of children being blessings and wanting to raise godly seed.”

At this point (with no lengthy time spent thinking about it), I am against it for the very same reasons that I am against the use of birth control. I believe that children are a blessing as Scripture teaches, but that does not mean that God’s plan for all Christians includes them. I think the same basic premise, albeit inverted, is behind both refraining from having children through artificial means and trying to have children through artificial means. God is the giver of life, and He often does not give it when we want it or even at all. Is He mistaken? Does He not know of our great desire? Is He just waiting for us to make a way on our own? The two greatest reasons that I don’t use birth control aren’t so much connected to godly children being a blessing (although they undoubtedly are), but are instead #1. Birth control separates an action from its God-ordained result and #2. I trust God’s will in providing me with the number of children it is best for me to have. Those who either use birth control to prevent children or strive to help God along in the creation of children are operating from a similar premise. They try, through their actions, to remedy an action of God’s that, for some reason, they don't believe is right for them.

I could easily offend many people with this last paragraph, but I don't mean to. This is just my honest approach to child-bearing. I would love to have a passel of urchins, but God may not give us any other than Millie and Annie. I believe He knows better than I both the seen and unseen effects that either scenario would have on us and those around us, and that He will act rightly, even if it doesn’t satisfy my own plans. (And it is a hardship to crave motherhood and natural-born children and not be granted them. I am grateful that God did not give me that burden, for it is truly a burden. Sometimes good comes in the form of burdens, though—a closer dependence on God, virtue gained through fire, and comfort to give others in similar situations.)
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“What about ectopic pregnancies? Though the baby might die an unnatural (though inevitable) death, life is sustained and preserved through the mother (which it will not be if left untreated and the baby continues to grow.)”

This one hits close to home, as you know. :) I don’t completely understand the last part of your comment, as the death the baby dies if not “treated” occurs naturally or as a natural result of the tube rupturing, but if the pregnancy is “treated,” the baby is unnaturally removed from the only place in which its life would continue until God took it. Anyway, this is something I won’t comment on in Blogland, probably, but would be happy to discuss in person. My dad and I had a three hour conversation about our differing views on the moral implications of removing the baby before its natural death, and we didn’t even scratch the surface in some areas. And neither of us convinced the other, of course! :) This is a topic on which I have thought at length, unlike all the other scenarios you mentioned, and because of this, my word number would climb into the millions.

If you and Matt haven’t reached a conclusion on this issue, I think it wouldn’t harm you to work toward one. Although it’s a long shot (Lord be willing) that you ever have an ectopic pregnancy, once it’s discovered, the doctors want to move with great haste, and responding to their sometimes forceful advice is much easier if one knows one’s beliefs and how one wishes to act.
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“What about surrogate mothering? It is very unnatural, and you certainly didn’t see it in biblical times, but it still follows the line of thinking that children are a blessing and that families should raise Godly seed.”

My feelings on this are similar to my feelings regarding in-vitro. I think the focus on in-vitro fertilization and surrogate mothering being a natural and acceptable result from following Scripture regarding the blessing of children is not completely applicable. Children are a blessing, but they are blessings given by the hand of God. As with any blessing, He may choose not to bestow it. One is not any less godly for not having children if God has not given any. The commands to raise godly seed are given to those with children and don’t really apply to those who don’t have children to begin with.

And one doesn’t have to have children to recognize the blessing that they bring and to even partake in the blessing. Helping young mothers with their children, forming relationships with children, teaching and loving them—all these things are possible without parenting your own. Of course, it’s not identical to having one’s own children, but God not giving one children does not exclude one from building loving relationships with them. (Here’s an article that kind of applies, even though I don’t agree with every last jot and tittle in it… Barrenness by Nancy Wilson
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Not all blessings are granted to all Christians. Good health is a blessing, and not all Christians are granted it. Having a godly and loving spouse is a blessing, and not all Christians are granted one, even if one desires to marry with all of one’s heart. Although it’s not a flawless analogy, godly marriage is a blessing, but if God doesn’t provide it, no one would think it best to rush around looking for a spouse.

We are called to be content in Christ whether we’re single or married, parents or not, rich or poor, hot or cold. Although, to be honest, in this heat, I struggle with that last one! :)
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I’m done. Now feel free to pierce me and my thoughts through with logic and arrows. :)

Scott M Terry said...

Those were excellent responces Abby. I couldn't have said any of it better myself, and thats saying something. :)

Rebecca said...

Well, I guess I take it back. Unless more people pipe up-there isn’t much of a debate. Much of what you said is very much what I planned on bringing out as people responded. In fact, you have the uncanny and very irritating habit of saying things in a better, more clear and to the point way than I do. Grr. Maybe you should have just posted it! ;-)

Yes. I have read Dave Peltzer’s book A Child Called It-though I am aware that he has written several others, and even his brother writes one. I haven’t read any of the others, I think because I can only handle one book on this subject every 10 years or so. There was more than one night I cried until my head hurt.

So. I am not sure how to do this whole quote thing so I will just cut and paste, I guess. You said…
I think (hope, rather) that all who read your blog would agree that there are definite limits to the moral use of technology. Anyway, I don’t know if it’s possible to answer the primary question you give. I’m not against the use of technology, medical or otherwise, and I believe that for the most part, it brings good, but I also think there are limits, and the point at which we say “when” differs according to the situation. Gee, thanks. I was hoping for a cut and dry answer. A lot of good you are! :-) Actually, I know there is no easy cookie cutter answer for this question which is why I was hoping for a good discussion. However, this just confirms the fact that the only person who reads my blog is you. Although, on the off-chance more people comment, I will say that I am quite sure most people agree with limits in technology, but I was surprised at the way the discussion was going at women’s group-so I wasn’t going to presume.

Those who use a blanket statement like that to support controversial uses of technology paint with too broad a brush, as not all knowledge is profitable and brings about good, even though God permits man’s acquisition of it.

One thing I thought of, and actually brought out (a little bit) in Sunday School today is a point of view that is easily overlooked. I always think of the Garden of Eden in this instance too. The serpent was not lying when he said that Eve would surely get wisdom if she ate from the tree. Verse 5 of Genesis 3 says, “God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” The problem is that Eve misinterpreted that as being good and wonderful. Tragically, knowing good and evil is NOT good and wonderful but is a great burden. In the same way, I think that though the Lord has allowed us to realize scientific means to do certain things-I believe in certain instances it is a curse rather than a blessing (as we presume.) Birth control is just one example. We think we are ‘outsmarting’ God and getting what we want, but what is left? People with regrets and depression, a world of death, depression, a life of nothing but selfishness, the withholding of gifts, disease, etc. etc. etc. This is why we must be careful to judge science not so much for what it can do for us, but whether or not the Lord (and world) has intended it for good.

Our God is one of deliberate order and design, and he knits our gender, eyes, and all else in the womb. Congenital defect and disease is no less a part of His creation than one’s gender or eye color, and removing them alters one’s life much more than changing eyes from brown to blue.
This is an interesting point. While I would agree wholeheartedly, that children (and adults) with ‘problems’ offer much to those of us ‘normal’ people, and since I of course maintain the Lord’s omniscience of His creation, I was surprised that I had not put that together. Of course. Congenital defects ARE just as much an alteration as eyes changing from blue to green. I will ask this though, if a child is born with a congenital defect, say….a hole in the heart, (or add whatever example comes to mind) wouldn’t you do all that is in your power after the child is born to fix such a problem? Or a cleft palette? Or a club foot? I would think any parent would want to remedy these situations if at all possible. In fact, many of the above stated situations are REQUIRED to be fixed for proper health. As far as eye color and gender, I say that these are dangerous because we begin to be full of vanity, selfishness, and discontent. Changing a child in order to help that child thrive is much different than discarding a child if it is a girl or has blue eyes or even TRYING to have a child that is a perfect mirror to the image you have for ‘your child’.
Do those who believe this is completely permissable have limits as to what can and cannot be tampered with? If so, what's the criteria that permits it and what's the criteria that forbids it? This is the question I have asked.

I know straight through to my bones that God gave us a great good in her, and that He purposefully made her who she was. Although congenital diseases and defects are an offshoot of the Fall, God brings about good through them that otherwise would not exist.

I brought this point up as well at W.G when Anna brought up a family who almost aborted their child who was thought to have some sort of problem, but was born perfectly healthy. Leah, too, piped in about a lady with down’s syndrome. I wonder if this lady is one and the same?

I think the same basic premise, albeit inverted, is behind both refraining from having children through artificial means and trying to have children through artificial means.

I have had this debate with many women but I still hold firm on the belief that birth control and purposely ‘trying’ to have children both stem from the same stalk of unbelief. In both instances, we are trying to ‘help God out’-one just has good intentions and biblical desires and the other does not.


:) I don’t completely understand the last part of your comment, as the death the baby dies if not “treated” occurs naturally or as a natural result of the tube rupturing, but if the pregnancy is “treated,” the baby is unnaturally removed from the only place in which its life would continue until God took it. Anyway, this is something I won’t comment on in Blogland, probably, but would be happy to discuss in person.

As far as ‘treated’, I was talking about the mother not the baby. We do have our ideas about this scenario. It would probably be prudent to discuss this in person. Already I am tired of this cutting and pasting bit. So much easier just to ‘discuss’ rather than converse through written word.


Not all blessings are granted to all Christians. Good health is a blessing, and not all Christians are granted it. Having a godly and loving spouse is a blessing, and not all Christians are granted one, even if one desires to marry with all of one’s heart. Although it’s not a flawless analogy, godly marriage is a blessing, but if God doesn’t provide it, no one would think it best to rush around looking for a spouse.

We are called to be content in Christ whether we’re single or married, parents or not, rich or poor, hot or cold. Although, to be honest, in this heat, I struggle with that last one! :)

Excellent point. I will add only one point, if I may. I believe blessings are granted to all Christians. As you said, not all Christians are blessed with good health or being united in marriage, or having children. I feel though, that these situations are blessings in themselves, but are never thought as such because they are not the desires of our heart. I hope I am saying this right. My challenge is for those of us who feel discontentment in their lives due to certain circumstances to seek out the blessings that come with such a ‘curse’ that other people may not have because they lack such a ‘curse’. I will use my sister as an example, as I don’t think she will mind. Elizabeth lost Grace and wasn’t blessed with another pregnancy for over a year. This being her first child, she was afraid she barren. Of course, she thought it a curse. Throughout this time, however, she was able to minister to several women who had similar situations. She was also able to comfort those who grieved. Women who have not gone through these similar happenings could not possibly provide comfort in the way Elizabeth could, because they could only empathize with them. As you said when you spoke of your Aunt, God brings about good through them that otherwise would not exist. We should look to see the gifts that come about through the ‘burdens’ that are placed upon us, and eagerly extend ourselves toward those possibilities.

OK. That’s about it. Man, that was rough. (And my response was half the size of yours!!!) I have a headache now. Enough computer for one night. :-)

Rebecca said...

Yippee! I got the whole bold thing down! :-)

Abigail said...

"Maybe you should have just posted it!"

NO WAY! My blog fills the important need for a glut of 2 girls and fluffy recountings of unexiting days. No substance allowed! (It's actually just a lot easier to comment on an issue that someone else has raised than it is to be vulnerable and raise one myself.)

"I will ask this though, if a child is born with a congenital defect, say….a hole in the heart, (or add whatever example comes to mind) wouldn’t you do all that is in your power after the child is born to fix such a problem? Or a cleft palette? Or a club foot? I would think any parent would want to remedy these situations if at all possible."

My issue is not with fixing a hole in a heart (I've read about surgery being performed on babies in the womb to remedy this very problem, and I have no qualms about it). I didn't even think about cleft lip or palette and club foot in my response. Exact causes for each of these specific congenital defects are unknown, and, as yet, I don't know of anyone who knows how to treat them except after birth. Therefore, I ignored them entirely! :) I understand your question, though. I was speaking particularly against altering fundamental aspects of self through genetic engineering to "fix" Down's Syndrome and like problems. I haven't thought much about the future possibility of preventing congenital defects like club foot, etc., or genetic diseases such as muscular dystrophy, and I'm conserving energy right now for sitting and don't have any to spare for exhausting thought. I'll let other people do the hard work and then choose with whom I agree...:)

I do think that there's some inherent danger when people, specifically Christians, believe it's permissable to alter the fundamental fabric of humans through genetic engineering for "good" reasons (i.e. disease and congenital defects) while at the same time condemning it for "bad" reasons (i.e. gender, eye color, etc.).

What if the important advances in genetic engineering are made through the use of aborted babies? I don't know why I just asked that, but I do wonder if it would alter in any way the response of Christians who are presently favorable to genetic engineering.

"I will add only one point, if I may. I believe blessings are granted to all Christians. As you said, not all Christians are blessed with good health or being united in marriage, or having children. I feel though, that these situations are blessings in themselves, but are never thought as such because they are not the desires of our heart. I hope I am saying this right."

I think we believe the same thing but approach it differently! :) I still hold that not all blessings are granted to all Christians, but that doesn't mean that Christians aren't granted blessings in whatever circumstance they be. I wasn't denying that all Christians are blessed but was just pointing out the fact that not everyone is blessed in an identical manner. Some blessings are harder to bear than others, and it takes a keener eye to see their good.

Rebecca said...

I'll let other people do the hard work and then choose with whom I agree...:) I'm afraid it's just you and me, kid. :-)
I do think that there's some inherent danger when people, specifically Christians, believe it's permissable to alter the fundamental fabric of humans through genetic engineering for "good" reasons (i.e. disease and congenital defects) while at the same time condemning it for "bad" reasons (i.e. gender, eye color, etc.).
I agree. There is great danger in making things permissable for some cases and not for others. We, as Christians, should be wise and look toward the future when making decisions such as these. Will this act lead to something that is a greater worry or sinful? While I will submit that we mustn't avoid something because it is a 'slippery slope', we should be wary of the possibilities. Not a perfect example, but an example none the less, is that of abortion. When the whole abortion thing came about, it was for the safety of the mother. It seemed appealing because good would come out of it and it was for 'good reason'. It lead, however, to what is now so common it is advertized on the computer in flash headings, at colleges, on TV, and encouraged by doctors. (I say this because yesterday I was on the internet and at the top of the page was a flash box with what looked like a chat room. There were two girls discussing the 'sex' one had had the night before and how the condom had broken. The other girl asks, do you have plan B? The first replies. "oh yeah. I just got ________, you know-that 72 hour pill. If anything happened, it will be taken care of." I was appalled. I wonder how people do not consider that abortion??? Anyway-off my soapbox here.
I wasn't denying that all Christians are blessed but was just pointing out the fact that not everyone is blessed in an identical manner.
I know that. I was only pointing that out in addition to-not in replacement of. Besides, I just wanted to prolong this sudden burst of activity in my blog by slyly writing something I KNOW you will respond back to. hehehe (evil laugh)

Abigail said...

"....slyly writing something...."

Very sneaky. If I were a fish, I'd swallow hooks, lines, and sinkers. :)